Interview: HRIC Executive Director Zhou Fengsuo and Two Young Activists on Experiencing the Taiwanese Elections
RTI's "Serve Our People" originally aired January 15, 2024.
Originally aired January 15, the following interview is a transcript of a radio show, Radio Taiwan International’s “Serve the People,” translated from Chinese to English by HRIC. Host Yang Xianhong interviews HRIC Executive Director Zhou Fengsuo and two young democracy activists who participated in the White Paper Movement on their experiences viewing the elections in Taiwan.
(后附中文版)
Introduction
Host: Welcome to “Serve the People” hosted by Yang Xianhong! Hello everyone, this is Radio Taiwan International (RTI)’s Voice of Taiwan. The program you are listening to right now is “Serve Our People,” which is on every night from Monday to Friday at 10.30pm. It is also re-broadcast at 12.15am the following day. You can also tune in to our broadcast online at www.rti.org.tw.
For today’s spotlight interview, I will be interviewing three Chinese democracy activists who have come to Taiwan to observe Taiwan’s presidential election. They are Zhou Fengsuo, Executive Director of Human Rights in China; and two young Chinese students studying overseas, Yang Ruohui, founder of the Assembly of Citizens, a youth organization in Toronto, and Apple Ni Peiqing, a participant in the White Paper Movement in London and also a leading member of China Deviants.
Taiwan's presidential and legislative elections were held on January 13, the first of around sixty democratic elections expected to be held in the year 2024. Therefore, this important and determinative election attracted international media attention, with more than 150 media outlets from 30 countries and more than 400 journalists in Taiwan covering the event. In addition, many overseas Chinese democracy activists and media workers came to Taiwan to observe the election.
Democracy and freedom have been the dream of Chinese people since the end of the Qing Dynasty. Following various attempts, after the Republic of China fled to Taiwan in 1949, and after another 38 years of martial law under the “White Terror” one-party dictatorship, we finally found our own path to democracy. In 1996, a comprehensive, democratic system of direct elections was established. The system was implemented and continuously improved, despite constant threats and intimidation from the Chinese Communist Party, for three political party rotations. Today, I would like to interview three overseas Chinese democracy activists to share their insights about the election.
Interview
Host: This is Voice of Taiwan of Radio Taiwan International, you are tuning into the program “Serve the People!” I am the host, Yang Xianhong. In the studio with me, there are three Chinese people who have come to Taiwan to observe the election. One of them is Mr. Zhou Fengsuo (Zhou), Executive Director of HRIC and previously, student leader of the Tiananmen protest movement. Hello, brother Fengsuo.
Zhou: Hello, brother Xianhong.
Host: Our second guest is Yang Ruohui (Yang), founder of Assembly of Citizens, a youth organization in Toronto. Hello, Ruohui.
Yang: Hello.
Host: Thank you for participating in our program. Here we also have Ni Peiqing (Ni), a participant in the A4 Revolution in London. Hello, Peiqing.
Ni: Hello.
Host: Thank you to the three of you for appearing on my program! Is this the first time you’re in Taiwan to observe the elections?
Zhou: As far as myself, I am quite invested [in the elections], this is already my third time attending. In 2020, I was here for the 2020 presidential election, while in 2022 I was here for the local elections.
Host: Is this Ruohui’s first time?
Yang: Yes, my first time.
Ni: My first time too.
Host: Let’s get our listeners to understand your impressions of Taiwan and your experiences here, and reveal if Taiwan now is any different from before. Let’s start with Fengsuo.
Zhou: This time is different from the previous times. In Taiwan, domestically, it is relatively peaceful, but the international community’s attention to this election have far exceeded that of past elections. Furthermore, at a juncture where Taiwan’s democracy is facing challenges, many details of Taiwanese democracy have come to the attention of the international community. For instance, there have been many reposts on Twitter about the final vote-counting procedure. Everyone feels like this process is so transparent, there won’t be any controversy. Under such circumstances, it is hard for any rumors to arise, because any candidate can go to any venue themselves to scrutinize the counting process.
Host: Every candidate will have a chance to scrutinize the votes.
Zhou: This is extremely important, because there are many such problems, especially in the United States, there have been nonstop controversies. Taiwan’s respect of democracy has therefore received widespread acclaim, evidenced by the unprecedent attention of the international community this time.
Host: Yes, the speed of the vote counting was also very fast.
Zhou: Yes, it was very fast and very successful.
Host: Ruohui, what are your thoughts?
Yang: Actually, I have a different opinion about Taiwan in this respect, which is that Taiwanese society is very inclusive. If you take a step back and look at these situations, you will feel as if there are great gaps between various parties, between different groups, and that there are great differences between various ethnic groups. Especially from the perspective of someone overseas, you only see the parties, and the most radical and exciting speeches. However, in Taiwan, what I saw was a completely different situation. I will give you a very simple example: once, I went to a night rally. I was on the subway, and was very surprised—just a few moments before, the atmosphere was very tense with emotions running high, the KMT scolded the DPP, the DPP scolded the KMT, then TPP scolded both parties—but as soon as the event was over, and people started returning to their cars and the subway with some people still wearing KMT hats, some people with DPP mats, some people holding TPP clothes or bags, everybody was still very peaceful. They were not saying they were at the party just now, not talking about what they listened to or watched, and no one started fighting or grabbing each other’s things or starting a conflict. So, I think one key point is that the democratic literacy of the Taiwanese people is indeed very good, because my Taiwanese friends also told me that [if this matter happened 30 years ago], there would definitely be fighting, but now there is actually a very big improvement. This also shows that Taiwan's democracy is also constantly improving, which is something I have never seen before.
Host: Actually, Taiwanese people are all waiting for the outcome, and thinking “I don’t have to talk to you now about who will cry or laugh later”!
Yang: Yes.
Host: There is so much [anticipation]. How about Peiqing?
Ni: First of all, I saw that Taiwan's democracy rating by Freedom House is 78 out of 100, which is a statistic that made me very curious. So, I came to Taiwan this time to see with my own eyes how other people in Chinese-speaking areas vote, and how elections are conducted. The experience of coming to Taiwan to watch the election this time actually exceeded my expectations. There were some details about Taiwan's democracy that I noticed: I observed that everyone in Taiwan can freely participate in politics. The most impressive thing for me was my conversation with the night market owner during the ballot counting process, and my chat with a taxi driver. First of all, I didn't expect that during the ballot counting process, I could be so close, and everyone could really scrutinize the entire process. I saw at the ticket office that every ticket would be shown and read out loud. In fact, this is also a symbol of the voice of democracy, and when every time each vote was read out, I also observed that the Taiwanese people's trust in Taiwan's democracy is very strong, that is, no matter which party wins the election, everyone still respects the results of a democratic vote. For example, once in a taxi, a veteran driver said in the course of our conversation that even if the party he supported did not win the election, he would be disappointed but still support the eventual outcome. Later, before the ballot counting, we were walking in the night market and chatting, and suddenly we talked about TPP’s housing policy. We forgot what the rental policy was, and on a whim asked a stall owner within the night market about it. And he actually replied and told us about it in great detail. This is because the democratic participation of the Taiwanese people is very high, and this really impressed me.
Host: What has been the most worthwhile for you during your participation? Fengsuo?
Zhou: To me, I visited Mr. Lin Yi-Hsiung’s Chilin Memorial House in Wujie.
Host: Ah, in Yilan.
Zhou: I feel that Taiwanese democracy has not come easy, not just because of the struggles and sacrifices, but also that rebuilding could occur under such difficult circumstances. That someone whose entire family was murdered could still practice compassion, kindness, and tolerance—this become the foundation of democracy in Taiwan today.
Host: Ruohui, which activity that you participated in had the most impact on you?
Yang: I think that all the events I participated in in Taiwan were meaningful, because Taiwan is a place full of miracles where many unexpected things can happen. If I really have to point out one event, after much deliberation, it would be the theatrical troupe I saw earlier?
Host: San Yu Shi Theatre?
Yang: San Yu Shi Theatre is kind of like, you tell a story, and then they present your story to you through dance and performance, which in itself a kind of artistic creation, a form of improvisational art. In fact, when I was there, there were a few Chinese friends from the mainland. We were actually quite touched when they brought up the topic of home and hometown. A friend said that he lived overseas, and his name would be mispronounced the other way around, and then if someone called his name properly suddenly from behind his back, he would be super moved because it was like a taste from his hometown, a taste from home, a particular sound. And this sound is really something that is long-lost and elusive for a dissident overseas, especially for a dissident who is participating in activism under their real name. So, in fact, this really aroused our nostalgia. For example, I know that Taiwan used to have a blacklist system, and then there were also many overseas exiles like Hsu Hsin-liang and Peng Weiming. They also said that after unrelenting struggles, they finally took back their country, so what we are actually doing is similar to the Taiwanese democratic movement in the past, that is, we want to take back our own country overseas through our struggle and our efforts.
Host: Save our own country!
Yang: Yes, we save our own country.
Host: Good, what about Peiqing, coming from London?
Ni: First of all, I think one of the most memorable activities for me was when I was at the 228 Memorial Hall. Mr. Chen Qingsheng, a victim from that time, took us to view the park. I was very impressed when Mr. Chen walked to a cell and said that this was his VIP room. He was very optimistic and said that it was actually a cell where he lived at the time, and then he had wanted to commit suicide three times in it. There is really no way to simply describe this experience in words where he took us to where he was actually being held, it felt like a kind of communication through emotions. Then he took us to the monument of the victims, and one by one, he introduced them to us. The names that protruded from the wall signified that they might have been sentenced to death. Between the names that protrude and those that don't, there's a space in between, because they want the sunlight to fall onto the next name. From some of these details, it can be seen that Taiwan attaches great importance to this earlier period of silence and dictatorship, and also attaches great importance to its history, which also highlights the Taiwanese people's and Taiwan’s current belief in democracy. It's a very valuable and important thing. It's also a light in the Chinese-speaking region. So, when I'm in London, when I go about doing these activities, I feel that Taiwan is my hope, and I want to say here that I'm very, very grateful, and I'm very, very pleased that Taiwan can adhere to its democratic policies, especially the voting system and elections. Thank you.
Host: You know that our program on RTI today is broadcasting to China, and your voice has already returned home. We broadcast through a total of 10 channels in North China, Central China, and South China, and this program will be sent out directly and broadcast in the shortwave radio and midwave radio. Hence, it is difficult for the CCP in China not to listen to it, your voice has returned home! I have a question now because Ruohui mentioned Peng Mingmin and Xu Xinliang. There are still many blacklists, and you are obviously also blacklisted now in China. Our radio station is considered to be, I once said, China's underground radio station. When we broadcast to China, the CCP does not allow me to broadcast like this, this is broadcast by force. Yet my program has been, from 2005 to the present, running every single day, no matter under the reign of which political party, I have not ceased my program. The blue camp, Ma Ying-jeou, was in power for eight years, and I was able to keep doing this show for those eight years. I asked President Chen Shui-bian to do this show in 2005. At that time, we said that—because Ruohui just talked about this experience, I imagined: one day you all have to go back, but I am thinking about where you go back from. I think you should go back from Taiwan, and if you need this, Taiwan can provide you with a springboard. So it doesn't matter how you fly, just fly to Taiwan, fly back to China from Taiwan. Like Hsu Hsin-liang, be arrested when you go back, and we will rescue you as soon as you are caught. We have also told the CCP that this will happen one day, and you are ready. Many Chinese friends will return from Taiwan.
Yang: This is really reclaiming the mainland.
Yang: So, what do you think?
Zhou: It’s very good. Every time I am in Taiwan, I love to swim to the edge of the beach, and be very close to the mainland.
Host: You can swim over hugging a basketball.
Zhou: Last year during the White Paper Movement, it was really an emotional situation. I thought that this was a critical time and Taiwan would definitely play an important role. Everything we do overseas is still for China; the real focus is to change the situation of more than a billion people being enslaved on this continent. This is the biggest contribution we can make to the world. In the past two years or so, in fact, the situation has developed rapidly. This time, these two young people can be here, and they represent friends who are very concerned. For someone who has persisted for 35 years, it is very inspiring, that is, that more people are joining us.
Host: Like what Ruohui said earlier, Taiwan’s democracy movement is key. Within Taiwan, there has been a lot of resistance, but we are especially thankful for the attention from democratic countries including the United Kingdom, the Europe Union and the United States. This kind of emphasis is not just a once-off because of the election. When people returned to Taiwan from the States, that broke through the blacklist and was a big jolt to the democratic movement in Taiwan. Ruohui, what do you think?
Yang: Yes, it’s like Mr. Zhou (Fengsuo). I know he once tried it, but didn’t succeed, then tried again…
Zhou: Yes, I did!
Yang: Yes, once.
Zhou: I was repatriated once from Hong Kong. [Another time,] I actually slipped into China, and I was repatriated at Tiananmen Square.
Yang: I think there is still one point, a difference in the situation. Taiwan’s democracy movement after all still has a certain level of support and influence in the United States, so the current situation in China's democracy movement may be different from the situation at that time. If you are like Hsu Hsin-liang and Peng Yongming, it’s fine for you to [slip into China], but if other people try to do the same, the results may be different, such as the previous incident at National Taiwan University.
Host: Yes, Chen Wencheng.
Yang: Yes, after Chen Wencheng, it was…
Zhou: Chen Wencheng was assassinated.
Yang: He was assassinated, but I don’t think he was trying to enter illegally, he just came back normally.
Host: Yes, he came back via the normal way.
Yang: What I am trying to say is, [entering at the border without proper authorization] has its risks. Even if you enter the country via normal means, you can be assassinated, or you can also be repatriated even if you successfully enter. Actually, sneaking in causes a big impact. I remember Hsu Hsin-liang’s incident. He fled after the neutrality incident, but when he came back, he publicly announced that he would be at…was it Songshan airport?
Host: That was Taoyuan Airport.
Yang: Oh, Taoyuan Airport. Let’s say I want to land somewhere, and after I publicly announce it…
Host: Everyone will then surround the airport.
Yang: Later, after he was picked up, he had some conflict with the police. This was interesting and stirred the emotions of many. But I think what we are trying to say is, there are different situations under different regimes, and the structure and methodologies are not the same.
Host: Yes.
Yang: For the Chiang Kai-shek government at that time, if they murdered returnees, or said they might murder the returnees one by one, it would have a great international impact and a lot of international pressure. Not to mention that you want to go to the United States to assassinate American citizens, the big thing about the Jiangnan case, [the assassination of Liu Yiliang, Liu Jiangnan was his pen name,] was that it put them under great international pressure, and Taiwan itself was under great pressure. Taiwan itself is on the front lines, it has always been facing a very real and bitter communist threat. They really needed the help of the whole democratic community, so in such a situation, the government is under international pressure, far beyond that of the current Communist Party. After all, because China is comparatively large with a larger population under its rule, it definitely has a certain level of influence over the international community. As we’ve seen, they can just kill a Nobel Prize winner, and try to kill whoever they want, and do whatever they want…
Host: Liu Xiaobo.
Yang: Yes, that’s why we need a strategy.
Host: But I feel that in the last one or two years, especially after Trump and Biden, the situation has changed. Peiqing, what do you think? Regarding the issue of the blacklist and of returning home.
Ni: First and foremost, returning home has become a false proposition. To me, China is not place where I feel a strong sense of belonging, because I have experienced a lot in China, and I have always felt orphaned in China in a sense. I don’t feel like I really have a home there. It is only after I went to London that I felt like I found my family. My biological family are not really my family, it is the people I found later that are my true family. I am thankful that you talked about how from Taiwan you can illegally enter China. Currently I am overseas primarily for a few activities. For one, I am deeply concerned about international advocacy for the human rights of Chinese citizens and civil society education. When I do all these things, I will often think about how to contact friends in the mainland, and how to raise awareness in the mainland. Right now, we are definitely doing some things and if an opportunity arises and if there is such a need, I think I will go from Taiwan, the shining beacon of the Chinese-speaking world. I want to walk there from this lighthouse, it will be so wonderful.
Zhou: Actually, during the White Paper Movement, their activities in London had a big effect in the mainland, and Peng Lifa’s message was proudly displayed in Trafalgar Square.
Host: Back to this election. I am very curious what you think of the outcome of this election, the percentages, the wins and losses, as well as the legislative election results.
Zhou: I think we are mainly concerned about observing the outcome. I think it’s important that Lai Ching-te and Xiao Meiqin win, because this is the Taiwanese people once again saying no to the CCP regime. This will be a clear message, regardless of the CCP threats, whether it is appeasement. This shows that Taiwanese people are clear and this is the most important message. Another thing is the number of legislators. I think we can see each party’s build, for example TPP’s supporters are very young, their average age is 20 something, but many have brought their children along. What they are feeling is that despite Taiwan’s decent economic development in the past, there are still practical problems, like rental, property prices, and income. I guess this is a response to DPP’s eight years of rule that there could be better policies in these areas. I am happy to hear Lai Ching-te talking about this when he was elected as President. This means that even for those who didn’t vote for him, he also heard their voices and is willing to cooperate with them. This is very good.
Host: Ruohui?
Yang: I agree with Mr. Zhou. Firstly, I want to raise the point that while many people regard Taiwan as the Moscow of this counteroffensive movement against the CCP, this is not quite right. Taiwan on its own is a democratic country, it has its own democratically elected government, it is responsible to its voters, and that is its first priority. Under such circumstances, Taiwan is not really just a base to go against the CCP, it is a place with 23 million people. So, in many cases, because the DPP's anti-communist stance is clearer, many people will be happy when they are elected and feel that we have another victory on the issue of anti-communism. In fact, we also have to see that the other two parties can also achieve some results in the local areas, or gain some votes in the presidential election, and this also reflects some of the wishes and ideas of the Taiwanese people. And then after the election, they said they still have to be united and to stand together because they are Taiwanese. This is one of the things that I am very touched by, that is: “tonight is election night, but after tonight whether you are a blue party, a green party, or a white party, we are all standing together, we are a united country, we are a democratic Taiwan.”
Host: Peiqing?
Ni: I agree. I am very pleased with the results of this election. The winning vote wasn’t over 50%, which means that no matter which party won, and this is the case regardless of country, it creates a democratic process with checks and balances. In this way, this ensures that the ruling party can really think about the problems within Taiwanese society. For the DPP, as I discussed with the taxi driver, some taxi drivers feel that the DPP’s rule for eight years has created some economic issues and some things that people are not happy about. I think that it’s very important that while the DPP was re-elected this time, there are also still voices that challenge the DPP[‘s Lai Ching-te], because this is a democratic phenomenon, that is, different voices exist and can still supervise each other.
Host: What do you think about the CCP’s reaction to this election, that is, that Lai Ching-te cannot represent the mainstream opinion of Taiwan? (laughter) What is your opinion?
Yang: Then does Xi Jinping represent the mainstream?
Zhou: The Taiwanese people have voted and 1 million votes have told CCP that they chose Lai Ching-te as their president.
Host: He was saying that 60% of people did not vote for Lai, so Lai didn’t get more than 50% of votes.
Zhou: (laughter) yes.
Host: Xi Jinping will say you cannot represent him… (laughter)
Yang: Xi Jinping has 100% of the votes then. He has all the votes.
Ni: Yes, all the votes.
Host: Looks like no one is raising their hands to object.
Ni: There are no objections because all the objective voices have been exterminated, and can’t even vote.
Zhou: In China, not only are there no objecting opinions, even the option to be silent does not exist. This is the present situation of the country now. In a democratic country [like Taiwan], with three political parties, this is actually even better than anticipated.
Host: I think we pay a lot of attention to the CCP’s reaction. It didn’t send in fighter jets or missiles immediately. They only said that [Lai] didn’t represent the entire country’s opinion at 40% of votes, which wasn’t over 50%, so be more humble. They are right, but elections are like that.
Ni: Yes!
Host: Winning by one vote is also a win, so we win. However, we have to understand the dissenters’ voices, this is what the President and Vice-President have both said.
Zhou: This time, while observing the elections, we spoke to many smaller parties, like Obasang [the mothers’ party] or with the Taiwan Nation Alliance, which are very unique organizations that really reflect a Taiwanese sensibility. This reflects the maturity of Taiwan’s civil society, which is very meaningful.
Host: Apologies, due to time constraints… We are very happy today to have Humanitarian China’s founder Zhou Fengsuo all the way from San Francisco, founder of Assembly of Citizens, a youth organization in Toronto, Yang Ruohui, and White Paper Movement participant from London, Apple. Thank you to the three of them, and see you tomorrow when you tune in again!
歡迎收聽由楊憲宏主持的
為人民服務楊憲宏時間
大家好，這裡是中央廣播電台台灣之音你們現在收聽節目為人民服務楊⋯⋯我們的節目播出時間是每週一到週五晚上10點30分首播第二天的凌晨0點15分重播你可以上網收聽我們的網址是 ww.rti.org.tw 迎大家上網收聽
主持：今天焦點訪談我要訪問的是來台灣觀選總統大選的三名中國民運人士，一位是中國人權執行主任周鋒鎖，還有兩位年輕的中國留學生，多倫多青年組織公民會發起人楊若暉，還有倫敦白紙運動的參與者，目前是中國反賊主要成員Apple 倪沛晴。
台灣總統跟立法委員的選舉1月13日舉行，這場選舉被稱為是2024年全球大概有60個國家要舉行民主選舉的第一場。既有決定未來發展的重要的第一個選舉，受到國際媒體關注，統計有30個國家150多家的媒體，超過400個記者來台灣採訪。除此之外，很多海外中國民運組織跟媒體工作者，都到台灣觀選。
民主自由是中國人從清末以來的夢想，中國人經過各種的努力，1949年失敗逃到台灣的中華民國，經過一黨獨裁白色恐怖長達38年的戒嚴以後，終於走出自己的民主之路。1996年有了全面的直選的民主制度 ，經過三次政黨輪替，民主制度不斷追求完善跟落實，在中共不斷的威脅恐嚇底下繼續向前走。成為跟中共獨裁政權強烈對比，今天的節目我要訪問三位來台觀選的海外中國民運人士來談他們的觀選心得 ，稍後我們就進行今天焦點訪談。
訪談內容
主持：這是中央廣播電台台灣之音⋯⋯收聽節目為人民服務楊憲宏時間，我是楊憲宏（主持）我們節目現場有三位來臺灣觀選的中國民營人士，一位是中國人權執行主任、天安門學運領袖周鋒鎖先生（周）。鋒鎖兄你好。
周：憲宏兄你好
主持：我們第二位是多倫多青年組織公民會的發起人楊若暉（楊），若暉你好。
楊：你好
主持：謝謝你來參加。還有就是從英國倫敦來的白紙運動的參與者倪沛晴（倪），沛晴你好
倪：你好。
主持：非常謝謝三位來參加我的節目，這是第幾次來台灣觀選？
周：對我來講比較積極關心，這是第三次了。2020年的大選，2022年的地方選舉。
主持：這個若暉是第一次
楊：第一次
倪：我也是第一次
主持：我們就讓我們的聽友了解一下你們的這個情況，對台灣的經驗跟印象，比較一下跟來台灣之前有沒有差別，鋒鎖先。
周：這次呢就是跟以往不同，在台灣本地就是相對的平靜，但是國際社會的關注度超過以往，而且台灣民主在世界民主潮流面臨挑戰的時候，台灣民主的很多細節，得到國際關注。比方說在推特上轉發特別多的，是台灣最後那個唱票的過程。人人就說這個太透明了，這個就是不會有任何爭議，在這種情況下，就是你很難說是有這種謠言傳播，因為你必須指定而且你任何一個候選人，完全可以到現場，任何一個現場去監票，對吧？
主持：每個候選人都有監票
周：這個是非常重要，因為特别是在美國面臨很多這種問題，對吧，不斷的有這種爭議的情况下，所以台灣的民主得到廣泛的讚譽，這次就國際社會的關注是空前的。
主持：是，開票速度非常快
周：非常快，對，非常成功
主持：哪，若暉
楊：我其實對於台灣這方面的一個跟我想的不太一樣的一個點，其實是在於這個台灣社會的包容性。因如果你遠遠的去觀看這些情况的話，就會覺得好像各個黨派之間，各每個團體之間好像矛盾很大，然後各種族群的撕裂也很大，然後尤其是從海外的視角，只能看到做勢晚會啊，看到那些最激进最刺激的發言。但其實你真正到了台灣社會，你是看到的是一個完全不一樣的情况？包括我舉個很簡單的例子，就是說我之前有一次去看做勢晚會，看完了之后呢，我特别驚訝的，我在地鐵上看到，剛剛還在做勢晚會現埸，幾個打得非常火熱，然後國民黨罵民進黨，民進黨罵國民黨嘍，之後柯P兩頭都罵，調動整個場上氣氛都非常熱烈。但是活動一結束，做勢晚會結束，回到這車上，回到地鐵上，那你就會看到有的人帶着國民黨帽子，有的人拿了賴清德了席子，有的人拿着這個背着柯P的衣服啊或者包啊什麼的。但大家都非常相安無事，就不会說因為我剛才在做勢晚會上，我這個聽了什麼、看了什麼，然後我現在真正的線下見到了對面的支持者我就要跟你打一架，或者說我就要去搶你的東西，或者說怎麼樣有衝突這樣。所以這個我覺得一方面就是說，台灣人的民主素養確實是很好，因為我也是聽我的台灣朋友講，這個事情你要是放在三十年的話，絕對會打起来，但是現在其實是有一個非常大的改善。這也說明台灣的民主也是正在不斷進步不斷完善，這其實是我覺得是一個對我來說，你看到不一樣的東西。
主持：其實台灣人都覺得結果等一下就知道我現在不必跟你講，等一下誰哭誰笑
楊：對對
主持：這是有這麼一個期待值啊，沛晴呢？
倪：首先呢，我在看到台灣在自由之家的民主分級為78分，滿分100分，這是一個令我非常好奇的數據，所以呢這次來台灣我是希望能夠親眼看到在華語地區，民眾是如何投票的，然後選舉又是如何實踐的。那麼這次來台灣觀選的經驗呢，其實超出了我的預期。我這次呢看到了台灣民主的一些細節，我觀察到台灣的每一個人，都可以自由地參與到政治中，其中令我印象最深刻的呢，就是開票的過程與夜市老板的對話，以及出租車司機的聊天。首先呢我沒有想到在開票的時候，我可以離現場那麼近，真的每一個人都可以監督到全程開票的過程，當場呢也沒有警戒線，而是以桌子圍繞出開票現場的範圍。我在開票處呢看到每一張票都會被公示以及大聲的讀出來。這其實也是象徵著民主的聲音，當每一次念出每一張票投給誰的時候，我還觀察到呢台灣人民對於台灣民主的信任是非常强烈的，就是說不管是哪一個黨派的勝選，大家依然能够堅守民主選擇的結果。比如說有一次坐出租車，一個退伍軍人的司機在我們交流的過程中說道，就算支持勝選的不是他支持的黨派，他感到了失望却依然自動支持的結果。之後在開票之前，我們有一次在夜市上面走着然後聊着天，我們突然聊到了就是柯P的房政策是怎麼樣的，我們當時呢，就突然間忘記到了，他的租房政策是怎麼樣來著的，然後我們就突發奇想，向夜市老闆一問，老闆你可不可以告訴我們一下柯P的租房政策是怎麼樣的？然後他就一一的就是很詳細的跟我們告訴了出來。這是台灣人民的民主參與度是非常高的，這一點真的是讓我印象深刻。
主持：參加的活動中間覺得最值得出來講的是什麼！鋒鎖兄？
周：對我來講呢這次我去看了林鈺雄先生的慈林（紀念館）。
主持：啊到宜蘭
周：對，我就覺得這個台灣民主來之不易，這不光是這個奮鬥犧牲的過程，而且在於怎麼樣在這種苦難的情況下能夠重建，所以他這個家人被殘殺這種情況下，能夠唱到慈悲、慈愛、寛容，就是今天台灣民主的基礎。
主持：若暉，你参加的活動裡頭一個活動對你比較有impact 衝擊？
楊：我覺得我在台灣参加的所有活動都蠻有意義的，因為台灣確實是一個充滿了奇蹟充滿了經常會有一些令人感動或者意想不到的事情發生。如果非得要我說的話，經過我的掙扎和思考之後，就只能選一個 就是之前我去看了那個叫什麼劇團？
周：三語事劇團?
楊：三語事劇團之後他們其實是一個，有點像是你講一個故事，然後他們把你的故事通過舞蹈和表演的方式給你呈現出來，本身是一種藝術創作，這種即興藝術。其實當時我去的時候呢有幾個從大陸來的從中國來的朋友在哪兒，我們其實當時蠻感動的一點就是說提到了一個 家和故鄉的這樣一個議題，這個事情就是說當時有個朋友就是講了說他本住在海外，因為名字是倒過來念，然後如果說突然有一個人在背後叫着他，然後喊他的名字，比如說小李，然後就會超級感動為這是一種來自故鄉的味道，來自家的味道，像一種聲音然後這種聲音實我們在海外作為一個異議人士，尤其是已經開始實名做事的這個異議人士來講，是一個非常久違非常難以獲得的東西。所以其實這個東西是的是勾起了我們的鄉愁，因為比如說像台灣本身的情況呢，這個我知道台灣以前也有黑名單的這個系統啊，然後也有很多海外流亡人士，許信良、彭偉明這樣，他們其實也是說，經過了不懈的鬥爭後，終於說我們把國家奪回來，所以我們其實在做的事情跟當年的台灣黨外運動其實也是差不多，就是說我們要在海外通過我們的奮鬥我們的努力，把我們自己的國家奪回來。
主持：自己的國家自己救了，
楊：對自己的國家自己救。
主持：很好，那沛晴呢你從倫敦來
倪：首先呢，我覺得令我印象最深刻的一個活動呢實就是在二二八紀念館的時候，陳青生就作為當時的一個受難者，陳青生先生帶我們去觀看了整一個園區，然後我印像很深刻的，就是說陳青生先生呢，他在走到一個牢房前的時候說這是他的VIP包間啊，他非常樂觀地說出來實就是他當時住的一個牢房，然後他在裡面曾經希望自殺三次就是我怎麼說呢，就是說我看到他之後在聽著，由著他帶著我們在他曾經被關押著的地方，去遊覽這一個經驗真的是沒有辦法去簡單的用語言去描述出來的，他是一種情感的一種溝通。然後他也是帶我們去到了受難者的那個碑名字面前，然後一個一個跟我們介紹，比如說凸出來的名字呢，就是說他可能已經判了死刑，然後凸出來的名字和沒有凸出來的名字，它中間會空一個格，因為他們希望陽光的那個陰影，要照到另外一個名字上面，這是這些非常細節的一些地方就能夠看出來，就是台灣的對於以前禁言時期以及獨裁時期非常的重視，還對於這段歷史非常重視，也突顯出了台灣人民現在對於民主的一個堅持，已至台灣整體對於民主的堅持，是非常難能可貴的一件事情，它是非常重要的，也是華語地區的一束光，它是一束燈塔，那麼我在倫敦的話，我去做這些活動的時候我感覺，台灣就是我的希望，我在此我想說就是我非常非常感謝，就非常非常欣慰台灣能夠堅持民主政策，以至選票制度，謝謝。
主持：各位知道我們今天這個中央廣播電台這個節目，是對中國廣播，你們的聲音就是已經回到家了，我們是華北華中華南總共用10個頻道，這個節目就直接送出去用短播跟中播，所以在中國中共想不聽都很難，所以你們聲音都回了去。我現在有個問題就是說，當然是因為若暉提到的彭明敏跟徐信良，還有很多黑名單，那你們現在顯然也都是黑名單，在中國的黑名單。那我們這個電台算是，我曾經講過我們是中國的地下電台，我們對中國廣播的時候，中共並沒有允許我這樣子廣播，這是強行播進去，我這個節目從2005年做到現在，每天沒有停止過到今天，不管是政黨輪替，也都沒有把我的節目拿掉，包括藍營。他們執政了八年，馬英九執政八年，我這個節目也活了八年。所以我這個節目是陳水扁總統拜託我來做的，在2005年的時候。那時候我們說過一句話，就是因為若暉你剛講這個經驗，我有一個想像，有一天你們都要回去，但是我在想說你們從哪裡回去，我認為你們應該從台灣回去，那如果你們需要這個的話，台灣可以提供，給你們這個跳板。所以你們怎麼飛都沒關係，就飛到台灣，從台灣飛飛機回中國，那就像許信良，他們回來就被抓嘛，一抓我們就救了就是這樣。我們也跟中共講過，有一天會發生這個事，你準備好。很多中國的朋友，會從台灣回回去。
楊：真正的反攻大陸啊
主持：所以你們怎麼看這個議題？
周：這個非常好，每次到台灣，我喜歡游泳到海邊游泳，離大陸很近⋯⋯
主持：抱著籃球就游過去了咧
周：前年白紙運動的時候，那真的是那個情況激動人心啊，就想著說 一艘船就黑過去了，這是關鍵的時候呢，台灣還是肯定會起重要的作用，那麼我們在海外做的一切，真正的重心還是中國，這是我們要改變這個大陸十幾億人被奴役的狀況，這是我們能對這個世界做的最大的貢獻，過去這一兩年來其實情勢發展很快，這次兩位年輕人能夠來，而且還有很多他們代表的這些朋友都非常關注，這是對於我們堅持了35年的人來講，是非常激勵人心的，就是有更多的人加入這些。
主持：台灣啊的民主運動，其實剛剛若暉講的沒錯，那是關鍵，所以島內反抗反抗反抗一直在做，可是海外，就是我們特別感謝包括英國包括歐盟包括美國這些民主國家，對台灣的這個重視，不是這一次選舉才那麼重視，其實那時候就很重視，那這些人從美國回到台灣，那個過程就是黑名單突破，那個是對整個台灣民主運動，最強烈的一個刺激，若暉你怎麼看？
楊：對因為比如說像周老師，我知道他之前也闖過關，未闖成，然後闖了一次⋯⋯
周：我進去了對
楊：對進去一次
周：我在香港被遣返，在大陸我是進去了，去到天安門廣場被遣返。
楊：但是我覺得其實還是有一點，這個情況上的區別，因為你像台灣民主運動，因為它畢竟是受到美國有一定的支持與影響，那麼現在中國的民主運動，可能跟當時情況不太一樣，因為你像許信良，然後彭永明這些人來闖關，他闖進去還好，但是有些人他如果入了關，可能結果就不太一樣，比如之前在台大的那個個情況。
主持：對陳文成
楊：對陳文成，然後就是⋯⋯
周：陳文成是被暗殺了
楊：他是被暗殺，但是他也不算是他不算闖關，我覺得他反正是正常回來。
主持：他是正常回來
楊：但是我的意思是說，闖關這個事情呢有一定風險的，就是說你可以正常入關回來被暗殺，你也可以闖關後人家只是把你遣返。其實闖關運動是有造成蠻大的一個衝擊，記得是許信良，當時是中立事件後就跑了後，回來之後說公開宣布我要在那個是松山機場嗎？
主持：當時候是桃園機場
楊：桃園機場 OK ，就是說我要在哪裡哪裡降落，然後就公開去講後⋯⋯
主持：大家就到那裡包圍機場，
楊： 後來就來接他後就跟警方發生衝突什麼的，這個確實是非常有趣，振奮人心的這樣一個事情。但是我們我覺得我要提的一點就是說，我們現在其實也是要意識到不同情況下同時間段內的政權，它的結構和它的處置方式也是不一樣的，
主持：是的
楊：像當時的蔣政府，謀殺海歸的這一個，或者說可能謀殺海歸的這個一個一個外籍人員，他就會有很大的國際影響，他就會有很大的國際壓力，然後更不用說你想跑到美國去暗殺美國公民，這種江南案（劉宜良被暗殺事件，劉江南是他的筆名）這種特別大的事情就是，他是會受到非常大的國際壓力，而且台灣本身頂在前線，一直是很真實刻骨的面臨一個共產黨威脅，他確實需要整這個自由世界對它的一個幫助，那麼在這樣一種情況下，政府受到國際壓力，是遠遠超越了這個當前共產黨當局的，因為它畢竟相對土地是比較大，然後奴役的人口比較多，所以它確實是對國際上的聲量和影響會有一定的消化，那麼我們也看到說他完全可以把這個諾貝爾獎得主，全可以是說被幹挨就乾挨掉，這種這種事情都做得出來⋯⋯
主持：劉曉波
楊：啊對啊，所以我們要有策略⋯⋯
主持：但是我覺得這一兩年，特別是川普、拜登之後這兩年情勢其實是變的，沛晴你怎麼看？有關這個黑名單這個回家這個事情。
倪：首先呢回家對我來說是一個偽命題為中國對於我來說，他並不是一個歸屬感非常強烈的一個存在，因為我在中國呢就是經歷了很多事情，然後我在中國的身份一直是一個孤兒的形式，就是我不覺得我那裡有一個真正屬於我的家。我是去到倫敦之後我才真正的找到了我的家人，也就是說我的原生家庭其實並不是我的家人，我後來找到的人們才是我的家人。那麼啦我非常感謝你提出了就是說在台灣，從台灣可以闖關中國這件事情，我自己目前就是說我的在海外的主要的一些活動，就是說關注國際人權倡導，對於中國的人權倡導以及公民社會的教育，那麼做這些事情的時候呢，我經常會想就是說要如何去跟國內的朋友產生聯繫，去在國內產生影響。那麼我們現在的確是在做一些事情，如果呢之後有這個機會，就是說有這個需要的時候，我可以我會從台灣出去像徵著華語世界的燈塔呀，我要從這個燈塔走出去為它實在太美好了。
周：其實白紙運動的時候，他們在倫敦的活動就是對於大陸起了很大的影響彭立發的這個信息，就是他們是很重要一環，在倫敦中心廣場展出。
主持：我們回到我們這次選舉，因為你們，我很有興趣知道你們看到這樣的選舉結果，這樣的票數，這樣的輸贏，你們怎麼看包括立法院的總統的輸贏。
周：我覺得很好這個結果，那當然就是我們主要是觀察了，我覺得很重要就是賴清德、小美琴他們取勝，這個是台灣人民再一次向中共政權說不，這是很清楚的一個信息，就是中共威脅也好，這種的軟化啊，綏靖也好，台灣人民很清楚，在這個事情上是非常明白，這是最重要的信息。另外一部分呢就是從立委名額啊，這些那我也了解一些包括這個各黨的造勢晚會都去看過，我覺得就是比方說柯文哲的這些支持者很多年輕人非常年輕，我看我的周圍，平均年齡大概就20多歲，還有不少人帶孩子來的。那麼他們的確感覺儘管台灣過去經濟發展不錯，但他們有一些很現實的問題，比如說租金、房價還有工資的問題，所以我想這是一個反應，就是很多人在民進黨執政八年以後，他有一種就是要問責執政黨，這是一個民主社會一個正常的一個反應，但我也希望民進黨在這些方面能夠做出一些切實的政策來回應。我很高興就是聽到賴清德總統當選總統他講到這些事情 ，就是沒有投他們的票的，他也聽到他們的聲音，願意和他們共同合作，我覺得非常好。
主持：若暉
楊：我也蠻贊同周老師剛才講的，就是首先我其實要，覺得要提一點就是說，很多人是將這個台灣當成是這個反攻運動的莫斯科，但是我覺得這是有一點偏差的，因為本身台灣它就是一個自己的一個民主國家，它是民選的政府，它是要對自己的選民負責，所以它的第一要務。那麼在這樣一種情況下，其實台灣它並不是一個說你專門一個用來反共的大基地，它是一個有兩千三百萬人，活生生的人在這麼生活的一個情況。所以很多時候就是說因為民進黨相對反共立場更加明確一些，那他當選了很多人就是會快樂歡欣鼓舞，覺得這個我們在反共這個議題上又取得一次勝利，但實際上我們也要看到說其他的兩黨，就是能夠在地方也能取到一些成果，或者在總統票上也能取得一些席位，也是能說反映台灣人民的一些意願和一些想法。那麼在這種情況下呢，其實我覺得還是說，不管是這個小英總統啊，還是說賴總統之前或者賴副總統現在是，都有講過就是說，我們要傾聽不同的意見，然後我們選舉之後我們還是要團結，還是要站在一起，因為我們是台灣人。然後這也是我非常感動的一件事情，就是說我們今夜是選舉之夜，過了選舉之夜之後，那不管你是藍黨綠黨還是白黨，我們都是站在一起，我們是一個團結的國家，我們是民主的台灣。
主持：是沛晴
倪：那麼我也是，我其實對這次的選舉結果非常的滿意，因為呢它沒有過半，然後我會覺得就是說，作為不管是哪一個黨派，就是不管是哪一個國家裡的哪一個黨派，作為一個民主的過程，它都需要有一個可以制衡它的另外一些聲音，這樣子才能夠確保就是說這個當權的黨派，它能夠去真正的去為台灣社會的一些議題去考慮，那我覺得話就是民進黨的話，我之前也在跟其他的註冊司機聊天，有一些司機，他會對民進黨八年執政底下的一些經濟問題上面可能會有一些不太滿意的地方，那麼我呢是覺得所以這一次民進黨再次當選，然後但是同時也有聲音可以去挑戰他的同時，去批判他的同時呢，那我覺得是非常重要的，這也是民主社會應該有的現象，也就是各個聲音，各個不同的聲音都依然存在，然後各個不同的聲音可以監督彼此這樣子。
主持：中共對這一場選舉的反應，就說賴清德不能代表台灣主流民意⋯⋯（笑聲）怎麼看？
楊：那習近平就能代表了是吧？
周：當然是我想台灣人民，就是用差不多100萬票的區別，告訴中共們選擇了賴清德，作為他們的總統。
主持：他是強調說有60%的人沒投給賴清德，賴清德沒有過半。
周：（笑聲）對。
主持：到習近平就是說你不能代表他⋯⋯（笑聲）
楊：那麼習近平就過百了，是吧。習近平不僅過 百了是全票。
倪：全票，沒有沒有沒有通過。
主持：沒有，好像沒有人舉反對手啊。
倪：就是沒有反對，反對的聲音已經全部被部消滅掉，所以就是沒有沒有沒有票通過。
周：中國不光連反對的意見沒有，連沉默的選擇都沒有，這是一個這樣一個國家的現狀。可是在一個民主國家，現在這個三黨競爭這種情況下，這樣其實比預期好。
主持：我覺得我們也蠻重視這一次中共的反應的，它沒有在第一時間就把飛機飛過來，飛彈打過來，這樣沒有。他只有說你沒有代表全體民意，百分之四十而已嘛，又沒過半，那我們就虛心一點。你說對的，可是你要知道選舉就是這樣。
倪：對呀
主持：贏一票也是贏，那我們贏了。但是呢，我們了解我們要傾聽反對者的聲音了，這是總統跟副總統都出來講，都講這個。
周：這次觀選還有一個就是我們跟很多小黨去談了，比如說像那個歐巴桑，那個聯盟，就是這也是很獨特的台灣有非常獨特的台灣色彩的組織，就是那麼這個很反映台灣這個公民社會它的成熟度，所以是非常有意思。
主持：抱歉因為時間的關係呀，我們今天非常感謝啊，從舊金山來的人道中國創辦人周鋒鎖，多倫多青年組織公民會發起人楊若暉，還有從倫敦來的白紙運動的參與者倪沛晴Apple，謝謝三位，謝謝謝謝謝收聽明天見。