Interview: Young Activist Leaders and HRIC's Zhou Fengsuo Share First-Hand Accounts of the White Paper Movement
March 12, 2024
This is the second part of a radio interview posted earlier by HRIC. Read the first part here.
Originally aired January 19, the following interview is a transcript of a radio show, Radio Taiwan International’s “Serve the People,” translated from Chinese to English by HRIC. Host Yang Xianhong interviews HRIC Executive Director Zhou Fengsuo and two young democracy activists on their experiences during the White Paper Movement, including their organizing work and encounters with pro-CCP Chinese people abroad.
(后附中文版)
Opening
Welcome to “Serve the People” hosted by Yang Xianhong! Hello everyone, this is Radio Taiwan International (RTI)’s Voice of Taiwan. The program you are listening to right now is “Serve the People,” which is on every night from Monday to Friday at 10:30pm. It is also re-broadcast at 12:15am the following day. You can also tune in to our broadcast online at www.rti.org.tw.
Program Introduction
Host: For today’s focus interview, I will be interviewing Zhou Fengsuo (Zhou), Executive Director of Human Rights in China; and two young Chinese students studying overseas, Yang Ruohui (Yang), founder of the Assembly of Citizens youth organization in Toronto, and Apple Ni Peiqing (Ni), a participant in the White Paper Revolution in London and also a leading member of the group China Deviants.
In late November 2022, significant protests erupted in major cities such as Beijing, Shanghai, Wuhan, and Chengdu, driven by discontent with the extended and strict COVID-19 containment measures enforced by Chinese authorities. The protesters not only demanded freedom from mandatory PCR tests but also expressed a broader opposition to lifelong allegiance to dictatorship. What drew the most attention was the campus of Tsinghua University in Beijing, where students held up sheets of blank paper in silent protest. Such protests quickly spread everywhere and included over a dozen of major cities around the world, in countries such as the United Kingdom, United States, Canada, and Japan. Brave young Chinese people made their voices heard, and it wasn’t just passion in the moment; they took it further to establish new organizations or strengthen their existing organizations. They stepped out of their comfort zones, actively focusing on human rights in China, and advocating for democracy and freedom. How did this transformation begin? What kind of emotional journey did they go through? For today's program, we invited Chinese students who have been following these movements, as well as Mr. Zhou Fengsuo, who brings along White Paper Movement participant and organization founder Apple Ni Peiqing, and Yang Ruohui from Canada, to discuss their respective organizations. Additionally, we will explore insights into Taiwan, covering its recent presidential election, and how these insights can contribute to the future development of their organizations. We will begin shortly.
Details of Interview
Host: Welcome to RTI, it's a pleasure to have you here for the program Serve the People. Good evening, I'm Yang Xianhong. We're honored to have three distinguished guests who have traveled a long way to join us today. First, I'd like to introduce the founder of Humanitarian China and the Executive Director of Human Rights in China, Mr. Zhou Fengsuo. Hello, Brother Fengsuo.
Zhou: Hello, brother Xianhong.
Host: Also, we have Yang Ruohui from Canada.
Yang: Hello.
Host: And Ni Peiqing from London,
Ni: Hello.
Host: Thank you, everyone. Let's start right away. First, let's interview the founder of Assembly of Citizens, a youth organization in Toronto, currently the Vice President, Yang Ruohui. Please introduce your organization, the circumstances under which it was founded, the influence of the White Paper Revolution, and since you are here in Taiwan, surely Taiwan must have had an impact on your movement.
Yang: Alright, thank you. Our organization actually began to take shape during the 2019 Anti-Extradition Bill Movement. It was around this time that we started to pay real attention to issues related to China. The Anti-Extradition Bill Movement erupted right at that moment, and several friends and I who were living abroad in Toronto and Montreal were continuously working to support the people of Hong Kong. However, at that time, we didn't have the idea of forming an organization for mainland Chinese people. That was because the situation back then was indeed quite hostile. Most of the young people from China were "little pinks" who were all against the Hong Kong movement, all supporting the CCP. We were quite desperate at that time because there were very few of us who were actually working together. Under the circumstances, we could say we were in an underground state. The situation began to change in 2020. When Dr. Li Wenliang, the whistleblower of the epidemic, passed away in February, a few friends and I firmly decided, "OK, let's organize an event downtown." At that time, we didn't expect many people to come, but we were surprised to have so many people join us, all paying attention to the same issue, and they were all young people from mainland China. So, my immediate reaction was, "Okay, these people cannot disperse. We need to form a group, form an organization. In the future, we have to work together to raise awareness of some of the issues in this world." That's how our organization was founded at that time. In the following years, because we had lockdowns and social distancing measures in Canada, there wasn't much we could do during that time. We helped to promote anti-extradition bill activities in the Hong Kong community and provided training for members of our organization. During the summer of 2022, before the "White Paper Revolution," we officially registered as an NGO in Canada; then, for the first time as an organization, we sent spokespersons and representatives to participate in the planning and attended the largest annual anti-communist event in Toronto, the "June Fourth" rally. After the Sitong Bridge incident, we began to closely follow the situation, and things heated up after the White Paper Revolution. Since we were founded relatively early, we had some experience in organizing activities.
After the Urumqi fire, on the first weekend, we organized a demonstration at the entrance of the China Embassy. We didn't expect so many people to come, but there were around a thousand people who showed up on the day of the event. However, the intersection was very small and there were cars, so we had to pull together a makeshift team. Some of us were in charge of traffic control, and some of us were responsible for crowd management. Because we had some practice, the whole event went quite smoothly. The police even complimented us, saying, "Looks like we don't have to be here, you're doing a great job." But it was indeed a very busy time. We had one event after another, and I had to drop all my classes because I knew I had to intensely focus on this matter. Across Canada, our organization and contacts were constantly engaged. I had to work until three or four in the morning every day, but get up at seven then rush to the city hall or somewhere else for speeches and activities. It was an exceptionally busy but fulfilling time, through the White Paper Revolution.
Host: We have Apple Ni Peiqing here from London. You are studying at the London School of Economics and Political Science, right? You are the founder of the "China Deviants." Please tell us about your group, Peiqing. How did the White Paper Revolution affect you all?
Ni: Alright, first of all, I would like to say that I am expressing my personal point of view only. I am not representing any organization, I am sharing my personal experiences from participating in the White Paper Revolution in London. In fact, as I mentioned in the previous episode, our group is like a family. We are a group of family members, and I found a sense of belonging there.
We got our start from Sitong Bridge. When the Sitong Bridge incident was happening, I was inside a library reading a book. It was a book about the Chinese feminist movement. It was borrowed in the 1980s, and the last time it was borrowed was in 1998. There was a sentence in the preface of the book that said: "If we persist for a few more years, our goals will soon be achieved." Right after I read this sentence, I saw the news of the Sitong Bridge incident, which had a powerful impact on me. This book, which hadn't been read for a long time, said that if we persist for a few more years, our goals will soon be achieved, and we will soon be free. And at the same time, the Sitong Bridge incident happened, and Peng (Lifa) was arrested. We didn't know, and we still don't know his whereabouts.
At that moment, I felt I had to do something; I believed I shouldn't wait any longer. So, I started to participate in the poster campaign. I don't know if you're familiar with the poster campaign abroad, where posters were put up all over major campuses to show support for the Sitong Bridge incident. Then gradually, everyone hoped that, through some online communication at the time, we would organize a protest in London initiated by mainlanders regarding the Sitong Bridge incident. Since the only experience I had was my participation in protests about Ukraine, I had no experience in any kind of initiation. At that time, all my friends and I, who were all newbies, started to work hard to make it happen. Another thing that had a profound impact was that there was a Hong Kong organization that lent us a microphone, we didn’t even know we needed to use a microphone during the protests.
And then, the most vivid memory I have from that period of time, I was constantly replying to messages without a break. I was so busy that when I came home from school, I grabbed my phone with my backpack still on my back and sat down on the ground as soon as I entered the door. I kept replying to messages for three or four hours until I realized my buttocks had gone numb. Then I stood up and said, "Oh, it's almost time for dinner." But by the time I felt it was dinner time, it was already early morning. That period was really, really busy. Ultimately, the protest happened, but it wasn't just my work; it was everyone working together to make it happen. It was also about all those brave souls who stepped forward and came out to the square. At first, when we arrived at the square, everyone was a bit afraid and thought, "Where is everyone? We don't seem to see anyone." At that moment, someone from the Tibetan organization took out a banner for the Sitong Bridge. It was about three meters long, and we hung it up. When people saw this banner, they started to gather around, and I took the microphone, and the event began. I have to say, this event wasn't just about us as individuals. There were many, many people involved, including those who were willing to stand up. Both the Hong Kong and Tibetan organizations were willing to share their materials with us; the banner was very heavy, and they just brought it over, carrying it in their backpacks. When they arrived, they simply asked who needed the banner. It was very touching. The community of international students in London is like a family to me. It's my place of belonging, I love these people and I love everyone there. I sincerely hope this organization can keep going.
Host: Right, so Fengsuo, you've been running your own organization for many years. Seeing these young people rising up from Toronto and London, what are your thoughts?
Zhou: It is very powerful. Firstly, I feel very encouraged, because young people all over are standing up as representatives. Whether as an organization or as individuals, their journey is very representative [of young activists all over the world]. At the peak of the White Paper Revolution, there were thousands of people participating in many places, such as Toronto, London, and New York. This was unprecedented, and it is a new hope. But on the other hand, it is very familiar to me. When they mentioned, for example, spontaneously putting up posters: in 1989, our initial mourning for Hu Yaobang also involved putting up posters. Then quickly everyone felt that we needed an organization, we wanted to raise our voices, and there was a desire for organizing. Soon after, those who wanted to put in a little more effort naturally became the leaders, even if they didn’t intend to, and in fact, that is what happened in my case.
So, when I heard Apple describe her journey, it sounded similar to me. There is seed of freedom that can never be extinguished, it is planted by God in the hearts of people. She had no contact with us, and it seemed as if by chance, right? Something happened which triggered it, and therefore, many people stood up everywhere. Of course, she is also organized, and has a long-term plan. Overseas, at Human Rights in China, we are dedicated to serving these young people and trying to help them to make things happen. Including this trip—we facilitated the opportunity to observe the elections in Taiwan, this is part of our work.
In 2018, I noticed that it was the first time there were students abroad who, after Xi Jinping proclaimed himself emperor and announced he was re-elected for life, started to resist on their own. At that time, there was a very famous movement called "Not My President," which was the first spontaneous campus movement after the 1989 pro-democracy movement, completely unrelated to previous democracy movements. Then the Anti-Extradition Bill movement roused some people, but at that time, it was implicit, and the majority of students abroad at that time were against Hong Kong people, including some infamous Canadian rich kids who drove luxury cars in parades and said that Hong Kong people were poor. These people represented the Chinese students abroad at that time. Under the surface, actually, many people chose to support democracy and freedom. But at that time, there was no visible organization. Many people who were later arrested in China were actually international students during that period in 2019.
The big change happened because of the pandemic. Because of the pandemic, people could no longer evade the truth: Chinese people have no freedom, nothing. In the past, this lack of awareness was a real problem; for example, people in Shanghai were quite content and even somewhat proud of their lives. Shanghai is an international metropolis, and it appears like they were enjoying a lot of freedom. However, when it came to down to it, they didn’t even have the right to speak. This means you don’t even have the right to cry out when you are hungry. There were people who starved to death in Shanghai. When Chinese people encountered the so-called three-year famine, many couldn’t believe it. But witnessing the situation in Shanghai during the pandemic proved it. You are hungry under a dictatorship where you don’t even have the right to cry out or the right to get help. The basic right of survival is absent. The CCP talks about rights like the right to be fed, but these are lies. These facts are crucial.
In this difficult moment, some courageous individuals emerged, who wanted to change this situation. After Sitong Bridge, I organized many online and offline activities. The theme at that time was taking action to gain freedom. For young people, there was a transitional process from personal expression to organization. This development, emerging roughly one to two years following the White Paper Revolution, is especially encouraging.
Host: I'm very curious about your process of mobilizing people in North America, Ruohui and Peiqing, can you explain this? Especially when Ruohui mentioned, just now, that surprisingly so many people showed up. And Peiqing, she was working until late at night, and she was moved by friends from all walks of lives and a lot of people stood up, beyond her expectations. But my question is, I have always been puzzled by a question from a Taiwanese point of view. Although a lot of young people left China (and are living abroad), they went to greet Xi Jinping when he arrived San Francisco. And some of them even attacked those who were protesting. These people, to me, they don't seem to be people who came along with Xi Jinping from China, but rather are people living in the United States. So why on earth they are so obedient to dictatorship without a second thought, while they are living in a free country? Will these people be included in the future of your organization’s development? Do you have a main strategy to deal with them, or do you have any ideas to communicate with them?
Yang: First of all, I don’t think people suddenly emerged. I believe that everyone has always been there; it's just that they didn't dare to come out due to fear.
Host: Fear.
Yang: Right, that's right, it's fear. Based on my experience, the CCP tends to use what I call a "brick-over-the-wall" approach to intimidate everyone. It's red terror, where regardless of whether you're very supportive or passive in the movements, CCP knows that on the other side of the wall there are dissenters, so they throw a brick over the wall to hit someone, regardless who it is. Therefore, those who didn’t do anything end up being arrested, but on the other hand the proactive activists may be left alone. That’s a tactic of intimidation, it makes everyone feel like they're under surveillance. But in reality, the CCP doesn’t have the time, energy, money, or sufficient manpower to monitor everyone. So, this fear is something we have to overcome gradually. During the White Paper Revolution, we kept shouting one phrase: if students within the country aren't afraid, why should we, the students abroad, be afraid? That's one thing.
Another thing we are concerned about are “little pinks" living abroad. During the San Francisco protests, I was there, and I participated in person, and witnessed some situations specifically. The local pro-democracy movement groups told me that there is a situation where “little pinks” around the United States are sponsored by the CCP, who provided them food, accommodation, and airplane tickets, and that's how the CCP mobilized so many people to be their supporters. Undoubtedly, some people are taking advantage of the democratic system. But this is inevitable. It's quite normal for people to pursue their self-interests. There's a Chinese proverb that says, “Any job that earns money is neither disreputable nor unethical.” But I find it quite unethical. However, a democratic system is supposed to protect different voices and different people. So, even if they are “little pinks," they still have the right to live, work, and grow in this country.
Host: What about Peiqing?
Ni: First of all, I would slightly disagree with what Ruohui said about why friends in the mainland stood up to fight but friends abroad haven't. I believe for many people, their action is not just about themselves, and their action might affect their friends and family in the mainland. There will be collateral damage. I think the CCP exploits our feelings; they use them to threaten us. Because the CCP knows we have emotions, we have love and concern, that’s why they use them against us. So, I don’t think they are ashamed to stand up. I believe everyone is a very kind person, so regardless of whether they are willing or not willing to stand up, people all around are kind and courageous. And the second question was... What was it again?
Host : How do you handle these individuals, considering your experience of growth?
Ni : Yes, yes, yes.
Host: It's about enabling them to stand with you, or at least not assisting or supporting the CCP, following or serving Xi Jinping without independent thought.
Ni: We actually have experience wit this. Do you know about an event in London related to the graffiti wall? Brick Lane is...
Host: Please tell us.
Ni: At the end of last year, there was an incident involving a group of pro-Beijing Chinese students whom did something on Brick Lane which is a street known for its graffiti walls. These students they used white paint to cover all the beautiful graffiti and then wrote CCP propaganda messages like "wealthy, strong, democratic." Our response at that time was, we engaged with the extreme pro-Beijing students with graffiti. But we communicated with local artists prior to our action. In graffiti culture, it's like, if you believe your graffiti is better than theirs, you may cover it up. However, you wouldn't cover the entire wall or street, you will just cover a portion. But in this case, these pro-Beijing students, they covered about seven to eight pieces of artwork, and one of them was even by a friend of a local artist who had passed away. So, their action was very...Firstly, seeing something that typically happens in China occurring abroad gave us a sense of trauma. Then, witnessing the disrespect toward London's graffiti culture, our response was to engage with local artists. We did our own graffiti and invited local artists to design a painting, embodying elements of the Hong Kong Umbrella Movement, Taiwan's Sunflower Movement, the White Paper Revolution, and elements of the chained woman. If anyone goes to London, please go to visit the graffiti wall, the painting has been there for two months now. I think what extreme pro-Beijing students might need is communication and dialogue. Because if we perceive the opposing side as severe enemies, gradually we ourselves become adversaries in the process. Hence, I believe dialogue and communication are crucial. Why do you want to whitewash the entire wall and put up these few words? Why do we feel traumatized, and why do we need to respond this way? I think there should be a mechanism for communication and exchange among us because not everyone is inherently meant to be seen as an enemy or adversary. Resistance might arise from life experiences and diverse factors, leading to varying perspectives. I think it's crucial to work towards reducing animosity and hostility through dialogue and communication.
Host : What is your point of view, Fengsuo? Actually, this is a longstanding issue you've encountered.
Zhou: Yes, yes, I have a lot of experience in this regard. I have been physically attacked many times. Right now, we are focused on how to help these young people's organizations on campus. Firstly, when establishing an organization, the focus should be on who we can attract, which is crucial. Going from one to two, two to four, and from four to eight is a significant growth. Nowadays, there are many schools with hundreds of students from around the world, among whom there are definitely full free-thinking individuals. We have to find a way to organize these people. As long as there are three persons, an organization can be formed, and a lot can be accomplished, even in situations with many "little pinks." Secondly, as an organization, Human Rights in China is working to consciously observe and understand the transnational persecution organized by the CCP abroad. They (Ruohui and Peiqing) mentioned that these individuals have the right to speak in a free and democratic country, which is true on an individual level, but the CCP as a foreign state is not allowed. It's not permissible for anyone abroad to act as agents of this country. This is something we repeatedly emphasize in various countries, so Human Rights in China has spoken up a lot in this regard...
Host: We need to take action. Let me share one thing. Between 2008 and 2016, during Ma Ying-jeou's presidency, he was more friendly towards China, and there were many groups coming to Taiwan essentially to speak for the CCP and earn money. Our...Peiqing and I share the same idea: communication. After all, Taiwan is a democratic society. You can say the CCP is good here, OK, but after you finished speaking, you have to listen to me. They are very afraid of these things. After they finished speaking, when I start to speak, someone will come and tell me that if they keep listening, they might not be able to go back home. They ask me not to speak. I say, can't you just listen? They say listening is not allowed. If you listen and don't react, that's even worse. I ask, who will report it? They say you don't know, there are informants among the attendees, they're basically monitoring.
Yang : Students who are paid to be informants, right.
Host: Yes, it's about student informants. What I originally wanted to say is that Taiwan is very willing to become an open platform. If you have any thoughts or want to speak for the CCP, I welcome that. However, the requirement is to listen to others speaking as well.
Zhou : Right, right, right.
Host: It should be like this, so I think maybe those of you in the United States, in the future, for example, you come to Taiwan to watch the elections, and after watching for a long time, you will be like me—this time, I didn't even go to the venue, I just watched it on TV, because I'm already very used to those scenes. But what interests me is, for example, if Fengsuo and friends like him come to Taiwan in the future, we can even invite some Chinese "little pinks."
Zhou: Yes, yes...
Host: Come here, if there's no dialogue elsewhere, you can come to Taiwan for dialogue.
Zhou : That’s great.
Host: Furthermore, Taiwan's perspective, the advantage of Taiwan's perspective is that we have practical experience. We also... as you already know, you know, we have experienced such a long period of persecution, thirty-eight years of martial law...
Ni: Yes
Host: It's absolutely very painful, including the events after February 28 Incident, including Lin Yi-hsiung, including those places you've visited, and if you've seen the scene of Cheng Nan-jung’s self-immolation, then you know that it's actually very tragic. So, we have a lot of experience, but even as we've come this far today, we still proceed cautiously. We don't think that our democracy today, our grievances, are gone. We always have this feeling that if we relent on democracy, we lose our freedom. So we are very willing to engage in dialogue. Those who pose threats, including people from the CCP, often come to Taiwan, and I am all for dialogue. If they want to invite me to Beijing for dialogue, I say one thing and they all agree. I say, when you come to Taiwan, you speak the truth; when you return to Beijing, you lie. Even I lie when I go to Beijing. So why should we? Lies against lies, or come to Taiwan and speak the truth. If you are unhappy with Taiwan, I am willing to listen, very willing to hear why you hate Taiwan, why you hate Taiwan's democracy, and why you hate Taiwan's freedom.
Zhou: There is a saying, "seeing is believing," so firsthand experience is irreplaceable. Therefore, we really hope to have regular opportunities for young people to observe and experience.
Host: This is age of internet, so as long as you leave your contact information, anytime you want to come on my show and chat with me, we can directly get in touch.
Ni: Okay
Host: You don't necessarily have to come to Taiwan to do the interview, because it's best for you to have your voice heard back in your hometown.
Crowd response: Okay!
Host: Thank you, everyone.
節目開場
歡迎收聽由楊憲宏主持的「為人民服務」楊憲宏時間
我是楊憲宏（主持）大家好，這裡是中央廣播電台台南機，你們現在收聽節目「為人民服務」我們的節目播出時間是每週一到週五晚上10點30分首播，第二天的凌晨0點15分重播，也可以上網收聽，我們的網址是 ww.rti.org.tw 迎大家上網收聽。
節目介唔
主持：今天焦點訪談我們訪的是中國人權執行主任周鋒鎖（周），還有兩位年輕的中國留學生，多倫多青年組織公民會發起人楊若暉（楊），還有倫敦白紙運動的參與者，目前是「中國反賊」主要成員Apple 倪沛睛（倪）。因為不滿中國當局針對COVID-19的疫情，進行的長期的嚴厲封控措施，2022年的11月底，從北京到上海、武漢、成都，在各大城市接連爆發的一些大規的群眾抗議運動，他們不只要求說要自由不要核酸，也進一步說不要終身制反對獨裁。還有就是對民主法治表達自由的口號。這裡頭最引人注意的是北京清華大學校園，有學生舉起白紙表達無言抗議。那樣的抗議形勢很快就蔓延到其他地方，而且擴展到海外英國、美國、加拿大、日本等全球十多個大城市，勇敢的中國年輕人都畫出他們吶喊，那些年輕人不只是有一時的激情，他們甚至因此萌芽或是壯大的原有的組織。他們走出舒適區，開始積極關注中國人權。並且提出民主自由的訴求，這樣的轉變是怎麼開始的？其中又經歷什麼樣的心路歷程，今天節目很難得，我們邀請到一直關注這些運動的中國留學生，包括周鋒鎖先生，他帶來了海外白紙運動參與者組織發起人Apple倪沛晴， 還有就是加拿大多人來的楊若暉，來談一談他們的組織。進一步我們也可以了解台灣，包括這次的總統選舉，對於他們這個組織未來發展有什麼樣啟示。那稍後我們就進行焦點訪談。
訪談內容
主持：這裡是是中央廣播電台，歡迎收看收聽節目「為人命服務」楊憲宏時間進行交流。晚安，我是楊憲宏，我們今天節目現場很榮幸，邀請到三位遠道而來的貴賓，首先我要介紹是人道中國的創辦人，也是中國人權的執行主任周鋒鎖先生，鋒鎖兄你好。
周：憲宏兄你好。
主持：那我們也有從這個加拿大來的楊若暉
楊：你好。
主持：還有從倫敦來的倪沛晴，
倪：你好。
主持：謝謝三位，我們就直接來開始了。首先就訪問一下多倫多青年組織「公民會」的發起人，現在是副會長楊若暉，介紹一下你的團體，當初什麼狀況下組織成立，那白紙運動的影響，還有台灣，既然來了台灣，一定是台灣這個因素對你的運動的影響。
楊：好，謝謝。我們的組織，其實在2019年反送中運動就開始成形。因為我們大概在這段時間，真正開始關注到一些相關這個中國的議題。正好就是這個時候爆發「反送中」運動，我和我的幾個朋友就一直是在海外的 ；是多倫多也好，蒙特利尔也好，一直是在做一些工作，去支持香港人。但是那個時候，我們是沒有要搞一個中國大陸人組織的這樣想法。因為當時的情況呢，確實是環境比較惡劣。這到的中國年輕人都小粉紅，都是說在反對香港運動，都是在支持共產黨。我們當時其實是蠻絕望的，因為我們其實真正一起在做事，一起在這個範圍的人還是蠻少的。在這種情況下，我們只能說是 ，情況發生轉變是到了2020年。因為疫情的吹哨人李文亮先生在2月份去世了，我和幾個朋友堅決說 OK，我們在Downtown搞一下活動。當時沒有指望會有人來，但是後來突然發現居然來了這麼多人，（這麽多人）在關注這個議題，而且都是大陸年輕人。所以我當時第一反應就是說，好，這些人不能散，我們要形成一個團體，形成一個組織。我們以後還要一起在這世界上推動一些議題，這就是我們組織當時的成立。然後之後的幾年，因為我們加拿大那邊也有一定的封城，還有一些社交隔離令之類的，所以我們那一段時間其實能做的東西不是很多。基本就是幫助香港社區推動反修例活動，然後做一些我們這個組織成員的培訓。一直到了「白紙運動」之前的2022年夏天，我們首先是正式註冊成為加拿大的NGO，然後第一次以組織的名義，並且派發言人、派代表去參與籌劃，參加了每年一度在多倫多最大的反共活動，就是「六四」集會。之後從四通橋開始，我們一直開始跟進這個相關的情況，接著到了白紙革命之後就熱鬧了。因為我們成立比較早，所以有一定的組織活動經驗。那麼其實活動當天呢，在烏魯木齊大火發生後的第一個週末，我們在中國領事館門口組織活動，但是沒有想到會來這麼多人，現場可能來上千，但是那個路口又非常小，並且有車，所以我們只能臨時拉隊伍，你來控制交通，你來負責控場。因為我們之間有一些演練，所以整個活動推行的非常順利，警察來到都誇我們說：「看來不用我們來了，你們做的很不錯嘛。」但是那一段時間確實非常忙，因為我們是一場活動接著一場活動接著一場活動，然後我當時是直接把我那個學習的課全都退掉了，因為我一直知道要專心忙這個事情。然後包括全加拿大範圍內，我們的一些組織，然後一些聯絡，一直是在做，所以當時我可能是每天要忙到凌晨三四點鐘，然後第二天早上七點鐘起來，跑到市政府或跑到什麼地方，然後就要做演講啊什麼的，所以那段時間是我特別特別特別忙，但是非常充實的一段時間，直到白紙革命。
主持：那這個從倫敦來的這個Apple倪沛晴，這是在倫敦政經學院學習嘛，她是「中國反賊」的發起人，這個我要請沛晴來介紹一下你們團體。是什麼狀況下，白紙運動對你們的影響。
倪：好的，那麼首先呢，我想要說一下，接下來我所有的觀點都是我個人看法？我並不代表任何組織，我僅分享我在倫敦參與白紙運動的一些經驗。其實呢，我們這一群人呢，就像在我上一集說到，像是一個家的存在。我們是一些家人，然後我在這裡找到了歸屬感。我們是從四通橋開始的。在四通橋發生的時候，我正在圖書館裡面看一本書，它其實是關於中國女權運動的一本書，它在一九八零年代被借出，然後它上一次被借出是1998年。書的前言裡面有一句話說，「我們再堅持幾年，馬上我們就可以達到自己的目標了」。在看完這句話之後呢，我就立刻看到了四通橋事件，這樣對於我個人是非常大的一個衝擊。這本書它已經很久沒有人看了，然後它說堅持幾年們馬上就要達到自己的目標了，馬上就要自由了。然後同時呢四通橋事件發生了，彭（立發）就被抓了。我們不知道，我們至今都不知道他的下落。那一刻我就覺得我必須要做點什麼，我覺得我再也不能等下去了。於是我就開始，先是參與了海報運動；我不知道你們是否知道海外的海報運動，這是在各個各大校園裡面貼很多海報，然後來聲援這次四通橋的事件。那麼呢慢慢的慢慢的呢，大家都希望，就是說我們當時呢，有一些在網上的溝通，然後我們希望舉辦一場，在倫敦的大陸人發起的，關於四通橋事件的抗議。因為我以前除了在烏克蘭抗議裡面有參與的經驗以外，我從來沒有任何關於發起某件事情的經驗。所以當時其實不止我，還有其他一些小夥伴，大家都是新手嘛，然後開始努力的去策劃呀。然後還有一件很影響深刻的事情，就是當時有一個香港的組織，在我們沒有器材的時候，他們借給了我們一個麥克風，就是因為我們其實都不知道，原來做抗議是需要麥克風的。然後呢，我當時印像很深刻就是，我不停的回消息，不停的回消息，忙到就是說我從學校回來之後，就拿了手機然後背著背包往地上趴一坐，就一進門趴一坐，就開始聊聊聊，就開始不停的回消息回消息，回了三四個小時才發現，我屁股都坐麻了。然後我才站起來說，哎差不多要該吃晚飯了，就是可能都已經到凌晨的時候，才覺得我差不多該吃晚飯了。那一段時間是真的非常非常的忙，但是最終這場抗議它成行了，但那不只是我一個人的功勞，是所有在幫忙一起策劃的人。還有就是所有願意勇敢站出來，到那個廣場的人。剛開始我們到廣場的時候呢，就是大家都有點害怕，就是說：哎，人在哪裡呢？就是我們好像沒有看到人啊。那麼這個時候呢，藏人組織的人拿來了一個四通橋的一個標語橫幅，我們就掛了起來，它有大概有三米長，然後大家看到這個標語呢開始聚過來了，然後就拿了麥克風就開始這個活動了。我必須得說這一次的活動，就這次開啟不僅僅就是有我們個人，還有很多很多人，包括很多願意站出來的人，還有港人組織以及藏人組織，他們願意去捐助這些物料，這是很重的一個標語啊，他帶過來啊，就是背在背包裡面帶過來，就說誰要標語來著，這是非常令人感動。我認為我感覺倫敦的留學生群體呢，就像是一個家的存在，這是我的歸屬地，然後也是我愛著的人，我愛著每一個具體的人，我也由衷的希望可以持續下去。
主持：是，所以鋒鎖兄，你自己現在這個組織，也已經經營很多年，那你看到多倫多、倫敦年輕人都已經上來了，你的感想是什麼？
周：非常強烈。第一就是感到非常鼓舞，這是年輕人在各地站起來，他們是代表人物了。這是無論是作為組織，還是作為個人，他們的這個心路歷程，都是很有代表性。在白紙運動的最高峰的時候，很多地方都有上千人參加，多倫多、倫敦、紐約，這是前所未有的，大家以後所以這個是一種新希望。但另外一方面又是覺得非常熟悉，在他講的過程，比如說從這種完全自發去貼海報，在八九年的時候，就是最早就是悼念胡耀邦，也是這樣大字報。那麼到很快的，大家覺得有必要有組織，想發出聲音，然後就是組織化的要求，很快就有了那麼這些想多做點事情的人，就很自然的成為leader，原來可能沒有想過這些事情，其實我也是這樣。所以我看到Apple這個歷程的時候非常類似，這是你們追求自由這種種子，它是永遠不能被滅掉的，這是上帝制在人心中的，可以就是你看他那時候跟我們沒有任何接觸，她就很偶然的機會對吧？碰到這些事觸發他去行動，所以在各地都有很多這樣的人站起來。當然就是她本身呢也是組織化，她也有一個很長期的過程。在海外呢，就是現在「中國人權」，我們致力於服務這些年青人，想辦法幫助他們做事，包括這一次我們一起有機會來臺灣觀選，這都是這些事情的一部分。那麼在那個時候，(20)18年我就注意到，(20)18年是第一次海外留學生，在習近平稱帝終身制以後，開始有自發的反抗，在那個時候有一個很著名的運動叫 Not My President 不是我的總統，這個是校園自發的第一次。在八九以後，就完全跟民運沒有關係的，校園運動的第一次，然後反送中以後也是在各地觸發了一些人，但是那個時候是隱含的，那個時候的留學生的主體，是反香港人，包括很臭名昭著的，就是些加拿大的闊少，開著豪車遊行說香港人窮，這是當時留學生的代表，可是在這種潛流之下，有很多人擇了支持民主自由，但是在那時候組織化看不見，包括後來在國內被抓的很多人，其實在那個時候是留學生，(20)19年左右是留學生，但大的改變是來自於疫情，就整個疫情這個過程，促使了很多人沒有辦法再迴避，中國人沒有自由，一切都沒有。這樣一個現實的問題，就在以前呢，比方說上海人，他是生活得相當滿足的，甚至有些得意的，這是一個國際化的大都市，好像很多自由都有，但是到了關鍵時刻，說話的權利沒有，意味著你連喊餓的權利都沒有，在上海有人餓死，中國人看到所謂三年飢荒的時候，很多人是無法相信的，可是看到上海這次的就是就說明了是在專制之下飢餓，你連呼喊的權利都沒有，連求救的權利都沒有，所以基本的生存權是沒有的在之前中共老說什麼吃飽飯的權利等等，這是沒有的，是謊言，這個是非常非常重要的。那麼很難得的就是這中間，想改變這個的 一些有勇氣的人站出來，四通橋之後，我當時做了很多線上線下的活動，那個時候的主題就是，用行動得到自由，那麼對年輕人來講，就是從這種個人的表達，到有組織的發展，這是過去白紙運動以後，差不多一兩年時間一個特別可喜的發展了。
主持：我很想了解若暉跟沛晴，你們在花旗組織這個動員的過程。剛特別聽到若暉講，居然有那麼多人來，然後沛晴會忙到那麼晚，也會感動於忽然好像站出來，朋友來自四方。但是我的問題是說，其實我在台灣也一直很納悶的一個問題，就是說中國有那麼多的年輕人出去，可是呢我在習近平去舊金山的時候，仍然看到很多人去歡迎他，甚至於還有一些人去打那些去抗議的人，那些人我看起來不是習近平從中國帶出來的，就是生活在美國，那為什麼生活在自由的環境底下，可以完全沒有反省的，還是對專制獨裁的服從，那這樣的人會不會是你們發展組織未來，你們可能是一個主力或是說你們有什麼想法，可以來跟他們溝通？
楊：那麼首先呢我覺得，就是其實呢不是說大家突然一下出來這麼多人，我覺得其實大家一直都在，只是因為恐懼不敢發生而已。
主持：恐懼。
楊：對，沒錯就是恐懼，因為基於我的一些活動經驗，共產黨蠻喜採取一種我稱為隔牆拋磚的手法，來威嚇大家。這紅色恐怖嘛，就是我不管你到底幹的這個事情，有很支持還是很消極，我就知道那邊在牆的另一邊有反賊，我就從那邊扔一顆磚過去，砸到誰是誰。但這會出現一些好像，其實沒有做什麼事情的人他反而會被抓，有一些你做了很多事情的人，他可能還沒事。這是一個威嚇你的手段，就是說讓所有人覺得你們都在我的監控之下，但是實際上共產黨它既沒有時間，也沒有精力，也沒有錢，沒有足夠的人去監控每一個人。所以這個恐懼是我們需要一點一點去破除的，白紙革命期間呢，這一直在喊一句話，就是說國內的同學們都不害怕，我們在海外的同學還有什麼臉去害怕呢？這是一個嗄。那外一個就是關於海外一些粉紅的問題。舊金山那一次我是在那裡，然後我也是親身參與了，然後我也是看到了一些蠻具體的情況吧，就是有很大一個情況是說當地的一些反對團體跟我講，他們是專門共產黨包吃包住然後拿飛機（票），然後把那個全美國各地的小粉紅接過去，然後才拉的那麼多人，這是當地的民運團體跟我講的。但是毫無疑問確實是有一些人說想要就是take advantage來佔這個民主體制的便宜。但是這是沒有辦法的一個事情，因為人趨利弊害是一個很正常的事情，就是說中國不就有句話說掙錢麻不寒磣，但是我是覺得很寒磣的，但是因為一個民主體制就是要保護不同的聲音，保護不同的人，那所以即便他們是粉紅，他們依然有着可以說在這個國家生活、工作和發展的權利。
主持：那沛晴呢？
倪：首先呢，我會稍微反對一下若暉說的一點就是說，為什麼國內朋友站出來了，然後國外的朋友還沒有臉站出來這件事情。首先我覺得有很多的人，其實他站出來之後他可能影響的不只是他自己，可能甚至還有國內朋友和家人，家人是一個，但是還有國內朋友，因為其實大家都是在一起的嘛，那麼我覺得中共就是利用這種情感，它是利用這種情感在威脅我們，因為他就是知道我們有這些情感，它知道我們這些人有這些愛有這些關心，它才會去做這種事情，它才會去利用我們這一點，去威脅我們。所以我覺得不是沒有臉站出來，我覺得就是大家都是非常善良的人是非常好的人，所以不管是誰願意站出來還是不願意站出來，每一個他在前面的在後面的在那裏的，就是他就是勇敢的善良的人。然後第二個問題剛好是什麼來著？
主持：就你們的發展的經驗如何去面對這些？
倪：對對對
主持：就是讓他們能夠跟你們在一起站在一起，或是說至少不要去為虎作倀，跑去當習近平的跟班這樣。
倪：我們其實是有一個經驗，就是在倫敦，你們知不知道關於塗鴉牆的一個事件？ Brick Lane（紅磚巷）就是⋯⋯
主持：說一下。
倪：在去年的時候呢，去年接近年底的時候，有一群中國支持北京的留學生在Brick Lane 這頭，就是本來原本是很多塗鴉牆的一個街上面，他用白色的漆把原本很美麗的塗鴉全部塗白，然後寫上了富強民主那些propaganda ，那麼就是我們那一次的回應，其實就算是跟極端支持北京的留學生的一個交涉吧，就是我們同樣以塗鴉的方式來回應他們，然後但是呢我們會去跟當地的藝術家去聊天。就是說比如說在塗鴉文化裡面，只有你覺得就是哦我覺得我很自信我的塗鴉能比對方的塗鴉好，我就把它覆蓋掉，而且他不會覆蓋一整面他不會覆蓋一整條街，他可能就覆蓋一面牆。但他是覆蓋了大概有七到八副作品的樣子，然後其中有一副作品呢甚至還是一個本地藝術家去世的朋友。所以呢，這件事非常的令⋯⋯首先在國外看，再次看到這種就是國內會出現的東西的時候，那種恐懼感就是一種創傷。然後再是看到倫敦原來這樣的一個塗鴉文化，被不尊重的一個狀態，我們的回應就是首先我們跟本地藝術家去聊天，我們去做塗鴉，我們自己去做塗鴉，我們去邀請本地藝術家去為我們設計一幅擁有著香港雨傘運動、台灣sunflower movement ，然後還有白紙運動的這樣一幅畫，還有鐵鍊女的元素，就是到大家的話去倫敦也可以去看一下，它現在其實已經屹立了兩個月了。那麼我覺得就是跟極端支持北京的留學生呢，我覺得需要的可能是溝通吧，以及對話。就是因為如果我們把一個反對方看成非常非常嚴重的敵人的話，那麼我們漸漸的在程中其實也會變成敵人，所以我覺得其實很重要就是對話以及溝通，就是說為什麼想要去洗白整面牆，然後去放這幾個字呢？然後我們為什麼呢就是覺得會感到創傷，我們為什麼要去做出這樣的回應。這是我覺得因為其實我們之間就需要一個溝通和交流的過程，因為這是每一個人他不是生來就是必須是敵人，必須是敵對的，只不過就是可能受到的生活經驗以及各個吧，就各個的因素導致了觀點的不同。然後我覺得反而是要去努力的通過對話以及溝通，來緩解這種恨意和敵對性的。
主持：是鋒鎖兄怎麼看？這個其實是你長期遇到的問題。
周：是，是，這個我有很多經驗了，我被打過很多次。就是現在我們也非常關注，就是怎麼樣別人在校園中間，就是幫助幫助這些年輕人的組織。我想第一呢就是，的確是建立組織的時候呢，可能還是要集中在能拉什麼人來，這是最關鍵。就是你從一到二，二到四，從四到八，這就是一個巨大的發展。那麼其實在現在呢就是，任何一個地方，比如說幾百人的學校多得很，其中其實絕對是有足夠的自由思想的人的，我們就是要找到方法把這些人組織起來，在各地都可以。其實有三個人就可以成立組織了，就可以做很多事情，就是哪怕在小粉紅很多的情況下，建立組織是完全可以的。第二呢就是，我們作為一個組織，「中國人權」我們是有意識地在觀察、了解中共在海外有組織的這種跨國迫害。那麼剛才他們說到這些人在一個自由民主國家，有這個發言的權利，是的，但是這個是個人層面，中共作為一個國家是不可以的。那麼任何人在海外作為這國家的代理人，也是不能允許的。這是我們在各個國家都反覆強調的，所以「中國人權」還在這方面發出了很多聲音⋯⋯
主持：要有行動喔，我講一個。是說是在2008到2016，是在馬英九執政時代，他跟中國比較友善，所以有非常多，根本就是幫中共掙錢講話的團體到台灣來，我們⋯⋯我跟沛晴的想法一樣：溝通。反正在台灣嘛，這是一個民主社會，你要在這裡頭說共產黨很好，OK，可是必須你講完以後要聽我。那他們對於這些事情很害怕很害怕，他們講完他們的以後，當我開始講的時候，就有人來告訴我說，他們再聽下去，可能就回不去了。請我不要講那麼多，我說聽都不行嗎？說聽都不行，你聽了以後沒反應，那更不行。我就說，那誰會去報告？他說你不知道來的人，中間都有一些線人，根本就在監控。
楊：職業學生嘛。
主持：對，是職業學生。我本來想是說，台灣很願意開放變成一個原地，你要什麼想法，要幫共產黨講話，我也歡迎。可是規則是你要聽別人講。
周：對對對
主持：應該是這樣，所以我覺得也許你們在美國，以後像說只光來台灣看選舉喔，看久了以後你就會跟我一樣，我這一次根本都看電視，我都不去現場，因為我已經非常習慣那些現場。但是我有興趣就是說，如果鋒鎖兄未來像這樣的朋友，來台灣，那甚至也可以邀請一些中國小紅紅吧。
周：是是 ⋯⋯
主持：你來啊，在別的地方沒對話，可以到台灣來對話嘛。
周：非常好。
主持：再加上台灣的意見，那台灣的意見的好處是，我們有實際的體驗。我們也⋯⋯你都知道了嘛 ，你也都知道，我們也曾經經過那麼長時間的被迫害，三十八年的戒嚴⋯⋯
倪：是
主持：絕對是非常慘痛，二二八後包括林義雄，包括你所參觀的這些，然後包括如果你去看過那個鄭南榕自焚的那個現場，你就知道說其實血淚斑斑的。所以我們有很有經驗，但是我們突破走到今天，我們還戰戰兢兢，我們一點都不覺得我們今天民主啊民怨還有，我們永遠有一種感覺是，如果我們堅持這個民主就沒有了，這自由就沒有了。所以我們很願意對話，那些有威脅的，包括中共的人其實常常會有人跑來台灣，我都是贊成對話。那他們要邀我說去北京跟他們對話說，我說了一句話他們都同意。我說你來台灣你就會說實話，你回北京就會說謊話，連我去北京都說謊話。所以我們幹嘛？謊話對謊話，還是來台灣大家說實話。你對台灣不高興我很願意聽，很願意聽你們為什麼這麼恨台灣，為什麼恨台灣的民主恨台灣的自由。
周：有一句話就是眼見為實吧，那麼切身的體驗是無法替代的。所以我們是很希望能夠有，經常性的這種年輕人來觀察體驗的機會。
主持：這個已經是網路時代，所以你們只要留下聯絡，任何時間想上我的節目跟我聊天，我們就直接可以聯繫。
倪：好
主持：也不一定要跑到台灣才能夠接受訪談，因為我的訪談對你們最好，是，你們聲音回到自己的家鄉。
眾人回應：好！
主持：謝謝大家